SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
The Israeli prime minister is due to hold talks with President Trump in the White House early next week. The visit by Benjamin Netanyahu is the first by a foreign leader during President Trump's second term, and it underscores the importance of the relationship. And it comes during a fragile ceasefire in Gaza and follows President Trump's suggestion to, quote, "just clean out the territory with Palestinians moving to Egypt or Jordan." Maha Nassar teaches about the 20th century Arab world at the University of Arizona, with a focus on Palestinian history. She joins us now from Tucson. Professor Nassar, thanks so much for being with us.
MAHA NASSAR: Thank you for having me.
SIMON: What do those words sound like to many Palestinians - just clean out?
NASSAR: Well, it sounds like ethnic cleansing. It sounds like yet another attempt to try to force Palestinians out of their homeland. This isn't the first time Palestinians have heard such calls for ethnic cleansing. And Palestinians, I think, are determined to stay in their homeland, no matter who says those words.
SIMON: Now, I say this as someone who covered the war in Bosnia. Ethnic cleansing included killing and murder. President Trump hasn't said that has he?
NASSAR: Well, President Trump is calling for the removal of Palestinians from their homeland, and Palestinians are determined to stay. So if Gaza is going to be so-called cleaned out, that would require force. And I don't know what other possibilities - I mean, the Israeli government, over the last 15 months, has also tried to remove Palestinians from the northern Gaza Strip, and they killed a lot of Palestinians in the process.
SIMON: How do you see the prospects for a ceasefire holding?
NASSAR: I think that it behooves everyone to maintain the ceasefire. We've been seeing over the last week hostages and prisoners and captives all returning home to their loved ones. It's a reminder that we could have had the ceasefire eight, nine months ago.
SIMON: Professor Nassar, what differences do Palestinians see, if any, between the policies of the Trump administration and the Biden administration?
NASSAR: Well, I think it's important to recall that even in the Biden administration, there was talk about removing Palestinians from Gaza. The Biden administration, early on in the latest war, sent Congress an official funding request to address what they called the potential needs of Gazans fleeing to neighboring countries. And many Palestinians saw this as President Biden giving Israel a green light to carry out ethnic cleansing in Gaza, even though the Biden administration and President Biden himself walked back some of those concerns.
SIMON: Professor, do Palestinians believe they have any particular leverage with the Trump administration now?
NASSAR: I think we saw the Palestinian leverage this past week when hundreds of thousands of Palestinians walked back to their homes in the northern Gaza Strip as soon as the ceasefire was announced and as soon as the roads were opened up again. I think that collectively Palestinians are showing the world that they are determined to remain.
SIMON: What developments are you going to have your eye on in the weeks and months ahead in Gaza and Israel and the West Bank, for that matter?
NASSAR: Well, I think that Prime Minister Netanyahu is going to want to see some assurances from President Trump that he could annex the West Bank. I doubt President Trump would agree to that since it would upend his goal of seeking a larger Middle East deal. At the same time, we know that President Trump can be unpredictable. Netanyahu might also ask President Trump to pressure Jordan and Egypt to take in more Palestinians from Gaza, which again, I think is unlikely, because no matter what they discuss in Washington or in Tel Aviv, the Palestinians in Gaza are determined to remain in their homeland. And I'm hearing this firsthand from my relatives and others I know in the Gaza Strip.
SIMON: How are they doing?
NASSAR: They are relieved for the ceasefire. I have one cousin in particular that I'm in touch with who lives in the Jabalia refugee camp in northern Gaza. They were forced out of Jabalia during Israel's reinvasion a few months ago, and they moved to another refugee camp nearby. And as soon as the ceasefire was announced, his adult sons went back to their home to assess the damage, and he sent me pictures. His shop was completely destroyed. The apartment's outer walls had gaping holes in them. The windows were all blown out. But yet he wrote to me saying thank God for everything that happens. He said his sons are removing the debris from their home, fixing what they can. And he plans on returning as soon as possible.
SIMON: Maha Nassar of University of Arizona. Professor, thanks so much for being with us.
NASSAR: Thank you so much. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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