ROB SCHMITZ, HOST:
The killing of Yahya Sinwar is a major development in the yearlong war between Hamas, the militant group he once led, and Israel. Sinwar was a key figure in planning the October 7 attack that killed some 1,200 people in Israel. His killing took place in the Gaza Strip, where he was born, raised and eventually rose to power as a pivotal figure in Hamas, the hard-line Palestinian Islamist movement. We wanted to spend a little time thinking about Sinwar's legacy in the Gaza Strip. For that, we've called Francesca Borri. She's a journalist who covers the Middle East, and she interviewed Sinwar in 2018, after he became Hamas' leader in Gaza. Francesca, welcome.
FRANCESCA BORRI: Ciao.
SCHMITZ: Thanks for joining us. You know, so much has happened since 2018 when you interviewed Sinwar. But let's take a step back and talk about the context in which you met him. You know, can you describe for me the setting of your visit and what you hoped to achieve by talking to him?
BORRI: It was really a life ago, a world ago. Hamas was in a corner, you know? So Hamas and Sinwar was really very weak at the time. And Sinwar, who has always been very determined - I mean, once he decides something, he does everything. Now we know, actually, after October 7, no?
SCHMITZ: That's right.
BORRI: But at the time, his choice was the opposite, was to try to reach a compromise with Netanyahu. So that's why the interview was somehow possible. You know, that's why it happened because, actually, Sinwar wanted to open a channel with Israel, and it happened. I mean, it opened it.
SCHMITZ: Is there any particular memory or interaction with Yahya Sinwar that comes to your mind?
BORRI: So many - the first time I met him, I had a hijab. I didn't know - I'm not Muslim, and I didn't know if, you know - wearing it or not. And then I thought, maybe as a matter of respect, you know - and so I was wearing this hijab, green, in - green, you know, like the color of Islam. And that's why he didn't recognize me when he saw me because, of course, he didn't expect an Italian, you know, to wear a hijab. And then, you know, he asked me to take it off...
SCHMITZ: Right.
BORRI: ...Because that's why, in the picture together, we - I donned a hijab. He was super criticized by, you know, the extremists of Hamas because he was not the - an extremist in Hamas. In Hamas, there are, you know, more radical guys. And he was super criticized for that picture...
SCHMITZ: Right.
BORRI: ...Because he was with a single foreign woman with no hijab, no - unmarried woman. He was super criticized. He said, no, because I don't want anyone to think that I'm asking you, you know, to wear a hijab. You're not Muslim, nothing. You're free. And you come here as a guest. It was quite different from the way - well, from the way he's been described in our media, but I have to say, of course, he was quite different from the October 7 Yahya Sinwar.
SCHMITZ: I want to get to that a little because, you know, Sinwar - Yahya Sinwar's tactics often involved violence, even before the October 7 attack, as you just mentioned. I'm curious, you know, did you ever come across Gazans during your time there who felt that his militant tactics and the tactics of Hamas in general were making things worse for them?
BORRI: Oh, of course, of course. When you are rooted, I mean, in a community - I'm speaking of Palestinians now, you know - I mean, they're very honest with you, you know, of course, of course, you know. But still, his lastest (ph) moments, you know, when you have the screenshot, you know, and he's throwing a stick, you know, at the drone without a hand - he's going to die, you know, and he's still fighting back.
If you read, you know, Arabic a little bit and you can read or listen what all the Arab world is saying, including, you know, the enemies of Hamas, the enemies of Sinwar - well, everybody is - it's like the Che Guevara of the Middle East now. So he was dead until yesterday. Now he's more alive than ever, no? There is still a discussion in Palestine. Nothing is, you know, open. Nothing is in the open because if you speak in Palestine, if you dare to say something against Fatah, against Hamas, against Israel, of course - whatever you say, you get arrested. You can get arrested by Israel, of course, but most of the times, you get arrested by Hamas or Fatah. That's also why it's so complicated.
SCHMITZ: Francesca, five years ago, when you interviewed Yahya Sinwar, he told you, quote, "we are not a transitory phenomenon. There is no future without Hamas." How do you think he was thinking about the future of Hamas? And does he have people in line to take over after him?
BORRI: For me, you know, the main question is not what changed for Hamas. OK, Hamas is over, but the idea of Hamas is not over at all. And again, that iconic image of Sinwar, you know, fighting back until his last breath - that image, you know, it's - is the beginning of the new Hamas, whatever its name will be. And so Hamas is not over as an idea. So the main question should be, now what for Israel?
SCHMITZ: That is journalist Francesca Borri. Francesca, thanks for joining us.
BORRI: Grazie. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.
